Author Topic: Star Wars: The Clone Wars Discussion  (Read 3766 times)

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Loopy

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Reply #15 on: April 28, 2020, 07:15:56 PM
Yeah, Maul would not have been a good ally. But confronting him was the wrong choice; much like the Clone Wars itself, Mandalore was a trap, and getting embroiled in it keeps Ahsoka away from the work she really needs to do. Sadly, like the Clone Wars, it's a really good trap, with so many lives in the balance. No Jedi could walk away to let people die, but that's exactly what going after Sidious would entail.

That's kind of why 'Rise of Skywalker' disappointed me so much. I was kind of expecting it to squander what 'The Last Jedi' set up, but turning Palpatine into a moron? Ugh.



Colonel Brian

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Reply #16 on: April 28, 2020, 07:34:38 PM
Oooooo. That’s a very good point.  So instead of busying herself with Maul, Ashoka should have been talking with Anakin and being that person he could have confided during this critical moment in his life.

I agree that the Clone Wars was a good trap. Heck, even after thinking about how the Jedi could have navigated it differently, I’m still at loss as to what the “right” answer actually is. I figured though that by the time the invasion of Naboo happened that the Jedi had already lost. I’m not sure what the official backstory for the time between the fall of the Sith a thousand years ago and Phantom Menace is, but in my view, becoming the “state religion” (for a lack of a better term) put the Jedi in a situation that would have made it impossible for them to negotiate the trap Palpatine left for them in one peace.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 07:36:09 PM by Colonel Brian »

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Loopy

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Reply #17 on: April 29, 2020, 07:12:12 PM
Yup, that's what makes it so brilliant, and one of the great redeeming factors of the prequels. The Phantom Menace ends with the bad guys winning the whole match, and the good guys didn't even realize they were playing the game. By the time the Clone Wars roll around, Palpatine has constructed the ultimate no-win situation because he's already taken control of everything he needs to take out the last of his enemies.

Honestly, I'm not sure the Jedi could have done anything to prevent it, except for maybe making sure they didn't miss those last Sith that got away 1000 years ago. Even if the Jedi didn't align themselves with the Republic, the Sith would have found a way to make the Republic into the enemy of the Jedi, so that they would have either had to fight a war against the rest of the galaxy or allow themselves to be killed. As long as the Jedi had some kind of power or base, the Sith would have found a way to turn it against them, because a thousand years is long enough for evil wizards to engineer pretty much any kind of situation.

And I think that's a deliberate aspect of the prequels' story, because the movies are very much about how the structures of power inevitably collapse in on themselves. The Sith are there to exploit it in story, but they're not responsible for everything bad, like arrogant Jedi and slavery at the edges of the Republic and excessively powerful merchant conglomerates. The Sith just find a way to use those things. Things naturally wear away or grow corrupt, lose touch with what they were. The real struggle is to allow good new things to rise up in their place and flourish, and not let it all fall to those who exploit entropy.



Colonel Brian

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Reply #18 on: April 30, 2020, 06:44:22 PM
The Prequels aren’t all bad. They’re insanely quotable, even though it’s for the wrong reasons. But yeah, Palpatine’s machinations are probably one of the few (intentionally) great aspects about that trilogy.

Anyway, I think you’ve mentioned in the past that you were ambivalent about Plagueis surviving all the way until the final act of Phantom Menace in the old continuity...why is that? I personally loved that twist, even if it was a bit of a stretch. Though maybe I just answered my own question.

Anyway, bring on the final two episodes. Tomorrow, Ashoka experiences Order 66 and the final destruction of the Republic.

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Loopy

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Reply #19 on: April 30, 2020, 07:01:42 PM
Well, there's the stretch, and I'm not really sure what the point of it is. I overall like the Darth Plagueis book, but I think the ending is the weakest part. Most of it is just reactions to TPM events, and Plagueis's death doesn't really match up with what Palpatine described in RotS. Plagueis surviving that long and Palpatine not being the master in TPM is a surprise, but it feels like a surprise for its own sake, not anything that adds to the story. I'm also iffy on Palpatine's rant while killing Plagueis that he was secretly behind all the best parts of their plans, as I missed that Plagueis wasn't aware of that; I can only assume it's meant to assuage any fans upset that Palpatine isn't fully running the show in TPM, but that just makes the whole thing even shakier for me.



Colonel Brian

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Reply #20 on: May 01, 2020, 01:05:36 PM
I liked the first half of this episode quite a bit. The slow, deliberate pacing worker very well in light of last week’s action-packed episode. Plus, the exchange between Ashoka and Maul was pretty good. I was hoping they’d team up, but I found Ashoka’s plan to use Maul as a diversion to be better writing. The rest of the episode was fine, I guess. I don’t find anything wrong with it per se, it just feels like it’s going through the motions.

Anyway, I really like how scenes from RotS are interspersed throughout the finale. They add a new dimension to the final installment of the prequel trilogy that I really enjoyed. Ashoka holding back the truth about Anakin was suitably tragic. She was this close to giving the Jedi a fighting chance against Palpatine’s plot. It makes me wonder if she feels any responsibility for the fall of the Republic? I don’t think she blames herself though for Anakin’s fall, since we know that she doesn’t find out the truth until Rebels. Though perhaps she blames herself for his presumed death? Or is just in denial?

Anyway, I hope Disney+ edits this all together into a single movie next Monday. I want to see this thing the way LucasFilm intended.


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Loopy

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Reply #21 on: May 02, 2020, 06:37:16 PM
While I liked all the character stuff with Ahsoka and Rex, I think the 'chip' stuff is a bit too nebulous. We saw the one clone with the malfunctioning chip, but he acted kind of crazy. I would have liked to see Rex's POV of what happens when Order 66 is given. We saw he tried to fight it, with tears in his eyes as he told Ahsoka to find out about Fives, but afterward he didn't show any resistance and certainly didn't behave as is he was brainwashed. What were his thoughts like then, versus when he was fighting the programming? Was a part of him fighting it the whole time, aware that he couldn't stop himself? Did he sink into some kind of reality where killing Jedi seemed like a perfectly reasonable thing?

It was a bit glossed over, but perhaps we'll get more of an explanation on Monday.

And yeah, the first half of the episode was great for the mood of dread. Kevin Kiner's been really knocking it out of the park for this one.



Colonel Brian

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Reply #22 on: May 04, 2020, 04:05:16 PM
I liked the finale. Not much happened, but it had a great tone from beginning to end, and everything from Ashoka and Rex free-falling to the last scene was well done. I really liked the shot of the mass grave of clone troopers. The image of their helmets mounted on their guns was pretty powerful in my opinion. I also liked the final scene with Vader, even though I’m not sure what it means. Does the bird circling Ashoka’s lightsaber have any significance?



Anyway, a great end to a mostly great series. Now they just need to edit the last four episodes together and screen it at the movie theatre.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2020, 04:09:43 PM by Colonel Brian »

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Loopy

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Reply #23 on: May 05, 2020, 06:30:46 PM
I think it was just a bird. Perhaps could say that it's symbolic of her escape/survival, but it was probably just there for visual interest, IMO.

My opinion of the Vader scene is that it's meant to be ambiguous, but for an actual mechanical storytelling purpose- it reflects the ambiguity of Vader's own thoughts. He's not sure if Ahsoka is alive or not; evidence suggests she died, but it's not definitive, and he knows she's a survivor. He's not sure how he should feel about either possibility; if she survived, that's good because he loves her, but it's bad because she's a threat and he'll have to destroy her, and she did 'betray' him by not being there when he most needed her, and he also hates all reminders of the person he used to be (and if she didn't survive, invert all of that).



Colonel Brian

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Reply #24 on: May 05, 2020, 07:02:31 PM
So you’re telling me that sometimes a bird is just a bird? That’s just crazy talk.


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Loopy

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Reply #25 on: May 06, 2020, 06:37:33 PM
To be fair, apparently birds and Ahsoka are a thing. So maybe I'm wrong.



Colonel Brian

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Reply #26 on: May 11, 2020, 09:44:36 PM
Nice find! Though I wonder how the two are connected? Filoni claims there is a connection, but so far it hasn’t been elaborated on. Though I think the same bird appeared in the second season finale of Rebels after Ashoka is pulled by Ezra into the future.

Anyway, Im curious, is there anything noteworthy set between Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones? That’s a 10 year gap. Surely something happened. I mean, by the time of AotC, the Galaxy was on the verge of a civil war.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2020, 01:50:37 PM by Colonel Brian »

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Loopy

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Reply #27 on: May 12, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
The old EU had some comics mostly centered on Jedi Master Quinlan Vos which are quite good, but they're not galaxy-shaking events. Sure, the Stark Hyperspace War occurs during that run, but it's really more of a Stark Hyperspace Skirmish. There was also a series of books about Obi-Wan and Anakin going on kid-friendly adventures, but I've never read them and I hear that they depict Anakin as the kid from The Omen, which I think rather misses the point.

In the new canon, though, I don't think there's anything much there. A single "Obi-Wan & Anakin" comic is set in that period, which I think is rather good, but it's another low-key adventure and pretty disposable. There's also a Padme YA novel that describes her first year as a senator, but I felt it lacked a story. However, if you're here for "an important year in the life of Padme Amidala with lots of handmaiden stuff," then this is gold.



Colonel Brian

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Reply #28 on: May 12, 2020, 11:40:37 PM
The kid from the Omen? That sounds hilarious. I should check it out just for that. Though, I agree that depicting Anakin as inherently messed up misses out on the fact that he was supposed to fall from grace. Palpatine fits the whole antichrist profile a lot better, though I’m not sure if I like the idea that he was lost from the start either as the Plagueis novel suggests. Though that might be an oversimplification. Palpatine still had free will, he just started his path of darkness earlier than most.

Anyway, thanks for the recommendations. I was hoping for something more exciting, but I guess it makes sense that those 10 years were relatively quiet, a sort of calm before the storm type of deal.

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